The Stupefy Spell?

Well i had no clue over the scientific research ,and also if there is picture of something occuring and book behind it for me it is prooven .Also prayer chanted by shinto priest is not the same like prayer chanted by random person and of course theh power of your prayers depends only of your personal believe and conviction .Also there is another factor to my knowledge he used the water from a certain lake and the water was pure .He does say dirty water will not have same crystals as clear one .Thus there are many factors involved .Factors which may not been the same while the experiment has been conducted .And also i strongly believe you can charge water i have done in and many other people have done it and had obtained good results .So my personal choice is to ignore the experiment and stick for what i have felt and experimented and rather believe to his theory let say .

Did some more research on the issue and look what i found .It seems like he was not the only one who works on similar theory when it comes to water .And we talk here for scientists not for hobbist .

"Human consciousness seems to have an effect on the clustering of the water molecules.

In the late fifties, Russian scientist, Nikolai Kozyrev has proven that human thoughts and emotions relate to torsion fields. Torsion fields or vacuum domains as the Russians tend to call them are the equivalent of the electromagnetic imploding vortexes in the vacuum of space.

At Heart Math institute Daniel Winter has proven that e-motion is actually an implosion of electromagnetic energy from the heart and mind when coherence is reached between the EEG and the ECG. Feelings of love will harmonically entrain brain and heart waves by Golden Mean ratio related frequencies in the frequency spectrum of the EEG and ECG. This will create an imploding vortex in the energy field around the person. This effect which creates Kozyrevs conscious torsion field, may also explain why Masaru Emotos water crystals are influenced by thoughts and emotions. Masaru Emoto is a Japanese scientist who has proven that the formation of ice crystals from water samples can be altered by human intention.

Its noteworthy that all of Masaru Emotos water samples that stem from natural and unpolluted water sources as well as those that have been administered positive human intentions, form ice crystals with a hexagonal core. Its only from pure, natural spring water or water that has been treated with love that these beautiful hexagonal ice crystals can be created. In all other cases, the ice crystals are chaotic.

The ice crystals with a single hexagonal core have fractal structures at the vertices of the hexagon, often hexagonal structures themselves. In reality the hexagon in Masarus water crystal is the top view of an icosahedron:"

Source :http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/water4.html

Please note where it is said that "he has prooven " and also that is a work of scientists and written by scientist ,while wickipedia can be written by me and you and it is not in any meaning any reputable source of information !I will rather belive to few scientists than to experiment conducted withclueless folks and posted on nonreputable source .Anyway i have learnt somethin new for torsion fields at least .Also how the experimentors conducting the experiment knew if people really put their intends and hearts in this prayer ?

Vihjalmr, you just tried to disprove something you see as one person's perspective by relying on the viewpoint of what others consider beautiful. That is nothing more than someone calling something seen as beautiful by one person ugly. The fact that they were judging the crystals on looks doesn't mean a thing. If you look at the geometric differences of those crystals, you would see the great variences caused by the personal energy flowing into them.
On top of that, that study itself was done wrong, you would have to have the same people pray over multiple bottles of water instead of having multiple people pray over one bottle each. How in the world can they expect the water to change identically for people who have different feelings and intentions; not to mention different energy types and levels?

"Vihjalmr, you just tried to disprove something you see as one person's perspective by relying on the viewpoint of what others consider beautiful."

No, I didn't. Please familiarize yourself with the idea in question before criticizing attempts to duplicate it. Masaru's idea is that certain intentions will create "beautiful" crystals; the study found that crystals created by these intentions were not rated as beautiful, on average, by anyone.

"The fact that they were judging the crystals on looks doesn't mean a thing."

Masaru was judging crystals on looks, so in fact it means a great deal!

"How in the world can they expect the water to change identically for people who have different feelings and intentions; not to mention different energy types and levels?"

They don't. They expect the water to change to be beautiful, as Masaru claimed. They found no change whatsoever, so even your claim that "see the great variences" seems of questionable validity.

You both seem to interpret my comment as some sort of "attack" on an "opinion"; it's not. It's a correction of a mistaken claim: that it has been "proven" that water crystals change when prayers are chanted over them. I don't know of any study conducted with chanted prayers, and the idea that water crystals change when intention is directed at them is dubious - not proven. That's all. It's no shame to be incorrect, so please don't get all upset. Everyone makes statements that are not 100% right; it's unavoidable. Even I do so.

You still don't get it, do you? The study meant to counter that is still retarded considering beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Stop digging yourself a grave by defending a messed up study, lol.

"You still don't get it, do you? The study meant to counter that is still retarded considering beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Stop digging yourself a grave by defending a messed up study, lol."

It seems like you still don't get it. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder would also invalidate Masaru's claim. That's why the study is talking about beauty: Masaru brought it up. I am aware of no other experiments that deal with intention affecting water crystals, so if Masaru is invalidated, it pretty much closes the book on the whole idea... unless you know of other studies?

But the point being made in the forums is that the crystals of the water can be changed through the prayer to support the post about spells taking effect on the coporeal plane. In other words, stop trying to change the subject to suit yourself and to draw attention away from the fact that the study actually has a valid point in this thread.

@Artemisia: If you have had personal experience with the changing of water crystals, well, that's different. I've never tried, so I don't know. What did you try?

However, regarding the article you have quoted: it doesn't say anything about the effects of thoughts or prayers on water crystals; it only repeats Masaru Emoto's claim, which I have already dealt with above. Just because a website says " [he] has proven" doesn't mean he has actually proven it, as you know; the study I posted explains exactly how they attempted to duplicate Masaru's effects, and what problems they found. That seems better, to me, than a single unsupported assertion like " [he] has proven" (as in the article). Masaru has also freely admitted that he is not a scientist himself.

In fact, numerous scientists are quoted by Wikipedia as criticizing Masaru - and the quotes are sourced, so we know they're not just made up. The criticism mostly revolves around his methodology, which he himself admits is more art than science. It's also worth pondering that what he claims goes against all known principles of chemistry and physics; there is no theoretical basis for it, so Masaru would have to provide a LOT of strong evidence, to overturn everything we know about physics and chemistry! (For instance, by what method are thoughts reaching water from the brain? At that distance, any effects of the electromagnetic energy in the mind would not be nearly enough to break or form any bonds between water molecules.) This is the principle that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I don't think he has provided extraordinary evidence.

Your point about "intents and hearts" is a valid one; the authors of the triple-blind study admit that there are difficulties in working with intentions, which could mean that Masaru's work is valid after all. That said, when one person - a businessman, note (Masaru) - provides no evidence for a claim except admittedly flawed "experiments" (more art than experiment), and another group of many people - scientists - cannot duplicate his work, it will take something more for the first person to have *proven* his conclusions. To say his work MAY be correct, sure; I think it's unlikely, but it's possible. To say it's been proven? Just plain false. I don't have a problem if you personally have proven it to yourself, though.

Now, about the article you have quoted. It doesn't deal directly with water crystals, but in interests of accuracy I will explain some problems I see with it. For one, Kozyrev did not say anything about human thoughts and emotions, to my knowledge; I can find no source attesting such - he was an astrophysicist, not a biologist, and in any case most of his work is long out of date. (It was out of date even when he was doing it, sadly, because he was wrongly imprisoned for a long time and was not up to date on advances made by other scientists, so much of his speculation was incorrect even at the time of speculation.)

That article was also not written by scientists - check out the base site; it's a bunch of random nonsense. Even the article seems of uncertain validity: electromagnetic imploding vortexes? How would "harmonically entrained" frequencies in the human body even create these, anyway? The base site even advocates "What the Bleep Do We Know?" as a "revolutionary new scientific documentary", when in fact it is not revolutionary, scientific, a documentary, or even new any more. It also references Dan Winter at the HeartMath Institute, when in fact Dan Winter has been publicly disavowed by the institute, and his own website has been seized as part of a court order against him; he's a scam artist. http://www.heartrelease.com/coherence-3.html

As for your comment on Wikipedia, the study posted can be verified from other sources and was conducted by scientists, not by Wikipedia or hobbyists. Also check this link out, if you don't trust Wikipedia: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html The gist is that it's accurate for scientific things, just not popular items like celebrities.

@woltrest: "But the point being made in the forums is that the crystals of the water can be changed through the prayer to support the post about spells taking effect on the coporeal plane. In other words, stop trying to change the subject to suit yourself and to draw attention away from the fact that the study actually has a valid point in this thread."

But the point I'm making is that the claim being made is that the changing of water crystals has been proven, and it has NOT been proven. Again, if you know of any study proving it, let me know. Until then, stop changing the subject to suit yourself and draw attention away from the fact that the "study" (if you refer to Masaru) is questionable at best... like I've provided a real study and links about.

I have not changed at the subject at all; my posts have always been about the same thing: whether or not it's been proven that water crystals changed when prayed over, or when intention has been directed at them.

You, on the other hand, change the subject with every post: first it was that the countering study is invalid because of beauty, now it's something about how my mentioning of Masaru's "study" is changing the subject... even though you go right on to contradict yourself and say that the study has a valid point. Which is it: am I changing the subject, or is the study relevant? Or is it that the study I posted is invalid because beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

I refute every point you make, yet you ignore it as if you had never posted it. Unless your next post tells me how a.) Masaru's study is valid, or b.) another way that water crystals have been proven to change with prayer, it is changing the subject and I may not respond. I don't want to waste time if you don't want to learn.

No, your post have been about whether or not the people in that study saw them as beautiful or not. Whether they changed into ugly crystals or not is of little concequence. The original study may not be correct on the beautiful part, but it does show that water crystals do change when prayed over. And even that is not what this thread is about. The thread is about whether or not battle spells that have a near instant effect are possible or even plausable. The crystals of the water do change when energy is poored into them through prayer, ergo spells can have an effect on the material plane that is visible (whether or not it looks pretty). As such, the original questions about whether magic can effect the corporeal world in a visible manner and without the roundabout process of letting the magic grow before the effect happens has more evidence (whether it is pretty or not to the general populace) to support it.