First I do not believe that magick has any ethics. It is what it is good bad and indifferent. If you use it to kill it is the same magick that you use to heal. There is no difference. The only moral standards that we have is those we set for ourselves and those that the community tells us are right. Since our preception of right or wrong is soly ours to interpate then there can be no set definition. Except that which we and the law defines.
Most religions therefore are about living in such a way that is deemed right and just by the people who follow it. Every one of them tells us that we should be morally sound, good, and honest people that do not give ourselves over to dumb and stupid crap that might be aginst the law. The three fold law is a way to get this across. It is an idea that states that if you do bad things very bad things are going to happen to you. Just like if you sin you will rot in hell. Sound familiar. Karma is the same thing technically just with a different beat. It states that every thing you do in this life that is good and just, rolls over into other aspects of your life and the next one and the next one after that ect ect. So they both are tools to make you live right by certain standards. Nothing more.
Thank you for that ESK. This is a perfect example of how two people can have different views and talk about them calmly and with respect. If only everyone here could do this.
I understand your viewpoint and I agree that it is 100% correct. I think what we have is a difference in how we view magic. I see it as a process of evolution. I am continually working on refining and raising my vibration to be something better. I have experienced enough negativity. But you must experience darkness to appreciate the light. I do, however, respect that you and I are at different places. Neither is better than the other. One of us is not higher or more advanced than the other. Just different.
Well first of all I want to say hello ( I'm new) and that I find this topic very interesting.
As for myself I believe in reincarnation and in karma. I believe that every action of mine has direct consequence on me (either good or bad) in this life or the next.
While Christianity states that I live only one life... and my actions during this one life will either save or doom me, i find it very hard to believe. Fist because Christianity is the newest religion, and second because I was mostly politically created to suit the times. Have more than one life to right your wrongs ... well that is too much time ... and the church could not afford that time. So it needed fear to make herself respected. It has one paradox for me: If God is love why does he punishes to everlasting pain (aka Hell) ? For me God (or magick/ univers/ energy or whatever other term used to descibe it) simply IS no need for him to institutionalized.
Re: Karma 3 fold law By: AwakeTooLong / Knowledgeable
Post # 16 Mar 22, 2013
For my part, I don't much subscribe to religion either. I do however try to avoid doing harm, when possible. It is far easier to destroy than to create, and I prefer to hesitate and offer deeper thought, if at all possible, before responding to any situation with any sort of harmful intention - verbal, physical, magical, or otherwise. If the situation persists, and demonstrates a need for some kind of reaction that is more forceful, I have no problem with being the equal and opposite reaction described in the laws of physics, heh.
That being said, I tend to leave magic out of such things if at all possible. My view point on it is much like Shawn's. Magic, for me, is the exploration of the spirit. It may well involve others. It might involve self defense. But for the most part, to lash out with it unless there is true need to protect yourself, or others, seems to be reverting to playground behavior.
Awake,it appears that our positions on this issue are not as far apart as they might first have appeared. I also reserve the right to use darker magic under extreme duress when I feel that the universe hasn't rectified the situation. Again like you I only use magic as a last resort, avoiding harm where possible and never against any 3rd party. Many thanks for offering me an alternative perspective, I greatly value your opinions.
I agree with you there no person is all bad or good it just isnt possible.However I live by these rules:
kill them with kindness
return evil for good
for every action there is a reaction
you catch more bees with honey than vinegar
I try at best to do this but there are those times when I slip and well I get my butt handed to me but hey I know what I did round.
I have won over many people whom wanted nothing better to make my life a living hell.I ignore there ill words and actions and come to them in there time of need with a helping hand and gentle words.I dont believe in turning my back on others and as such I have won over most of my enemies.
But there are times when one must act.I do not fight but I will defend myself.As such I made a very good friend out of a girl who wanted to tear me to pieces.I just held her down(after being jumped on by her and her friends) and told her I wont fight her because I was like her once.I walked off on her and the next day I treated her with nothing but kindness.She asked for my forgiveness and now she never passes me straight.
Your words and actions do determine the type of life you will have and the problems you will face on your way.
I think somebody already touched on it, but Karma and the 3 fold law are completely different things. Karma belongs to Hindu culture for one thing, and the 3 fold law is an aspect of Wicca. One is the "consequences" of your present life deeds on your future life, and the other is a system of cause and effect that operates within your present and immediate life.
But I do like this post, as it touches on this theme of sin and how it affects our spirituality/relationship with deity throughout different religions. I personally feel more inclined with a belief in entropy, which is why I think religion and people and everything in general tries so hard to come up with a system of balance. Also, I don't necessarily see everything as black/white, good/evil, etc. I guess I just see one as the absence of the other, and vice versa.
In terms of karma/3 fold/morality, I think it's one of the biggest topics of discussion here on SoM. If a system that one person operates within coincides with the moral beliefs of the majority, then it's seen as "good". If it doesn't...well, that's typically when threats of force feeding beliefs starts getting thrown around in the PC.
Being raised a Roman Catholic, concepts like morality and sin and redemption/salvation are inextricably rooted in my core. Even though I align more along the lines of "eclectic spiritualist" now, I still can't help but cringe a little whenever somebody talks about using magic for a "dark" means. I know it's their business, and whatever happens happens, but there's that little voice in the back of my head that nags wrong wrong wrong! because of my original programming for moral beliefs. I still feel that urge to say, "Eh...maybe you shouldn't do that..." but I know it's really not my place at all. If somebody wants to use spell for selfish means, it's none of my concern.
Weirdly enough, I think it was the scene in Wreck It Ralph with the Bad Guys Anonymous group speech that really put thinks into perspective for me:
"I'm bad and that's good. I will never be good and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me." ...
It resonates a lot with my Catholic upbringing, because we are taught that from birth, we are unworthy due to original sin, and that only through the grace of God's love and Jesus's sacrifice are we made clean and pure. Growing up, that was such a HUGE concept to wrap my head around, so I looked to smaller examples...like the Saints. They were ordinary people, who lived extraordinary lives. They were human, they messed up, they sinned, they made mistakes...but in the end, they are glorified, exonerated, and looked up to by those of the faith (that's why when we make Confirmation, we typically pick a patron Saint). Look at Paul! The dude was a tax hungry, Christian killing, zealot of the Hebrew faith. And yet...he became one of the most influential and popularized Saints. He's even got a whole chunk of the bible dedicated to his letters and conversion experience. He himself says he was a bad guy, but in the end, he was good. He wasn't perfect, and that was ok.
In terms of intention, I think it's all a matter of personal belief and perspective. Like we've rehashed so many times before, what is "good" and justifiable to one person may be trife to another. You'd only need to spend 20 minutes in PC to see what I mean by this if you haven't already.
You can only do right by you, but I guess then that poses the question of what is truly right by you? Do you operate within a system that is your own personal truth, or one that was influenced by the truth of others? And for those of us who might have struggled to formulate differing truths from what we were raised with, is there any peace from the nagging guilt and influence of those beliefs?
Patgabz, as you so rightly said I should have clarified that the 3 fold law was from Wicca and not Karma (my bad ;) Aside from that you make some interesting points. Religion and society program us to be 'good' but sometimes 'good' can be impossible to define. I think many practitioners of witchcraft blindly adhere to the 3 fold law (bending it where necessary to suit their purposes!) without pausing to question it. They then behave in a very judgmental way against those of us that hold alternative views. Sometimes for want of a better word 'darker' spell can be utilized as a last result for the greater good. I should also like to point out that many of those that adhere to the 3 fold law will inform us that dark and light are both necessary to create balance which considering their opinions on 'darker' spells just doesn't add up!
I realize that this is a very contentious topic but I have absolutely no intention of offending anybody or their beliefs.
