The interval of fluff/fiction

And neither do I.

**Warning! Warning! Long post ahead! Get your Visine!**
United, your question is delightfully complex, and so it might get a little involved in how i explain my position, opinion, and reasoning. This might be a bit of a novel.

For the most part it is all one big grey area to me. In the end, no one truly knows what is definitively, universally valid or not. So people are left arguing about whether they agree with the idea instead. Such discussion is healthy and vital, to be sure, but there are things that every person should bear in mind.

First a touch of the realistic, all gods and lore began as stories. Some to explain natural events, others to explain natural cycles, or to human qualities and ideals. Still more to give names and faces to the stars in the sky. In this specific regard, the 'old' established and accepted gods are no different than present, created ones. They have just been around long enough for their stories and poems to become myth and legend, and to be remembered for what they represent more than where they came from.

Second is the function of personal gnosis, which is a fancy way to say belief is a function of personal experiences and the conclusions made from them. personified actually made a fantastic article about it, and I think it is relevant to the discussion so I'm gonna link it here;
http://www.spellsofmagic.com/read_post.html?post=598601

Third is the everlasting debate around the ability of magic to create physical change. How it works, where the limits lie, what fuels the changes if any occur, and whether such information can be used to heal, harm, both, or neither. And in this regard there are as many camps in the field as there are days of the year. And then some.

Of course like any grey area, there are points where information will be eventually far enough away from the middle-ground as to be definitively outside the realm of possibility (or likewise, obviously real). But for the rest, I tend to rely on a few personal guidelines.

Is the desired effect within the bounds of what is naturally possible? In healing, is it something the body is naturally capable of fixing? In physical action, is it within the laws of physics? if the answer is a no to any of these, then it is a red flag against being something that is viable.

Of course when examining possibilities in a more esoterical, philosophical, or spiritual sense it gets a bit more tricky, and a whole lot more grey. No matter what philosophy or foundation you operate through, if you dig backwards in them far enough you reach some sort of an assumption or guess. So everything in the end becomes a big pile of 'well, maybe'. At which point it becomes dependent on comparing logical process of the belief with the nature of the assumptions it is founded on. This is where that personal gnosis thing comes into play. There are concepts people believe in that are limited to individuals or small groups of relative population; for example pleiadeans, otherkin, scientology, and the like. And then there are concepts that are openly accepted throughout large portions of the population, and that also tend to be common among multiple contexts. Like the idea of energy and soul in general, and the concept of continuing life or consciousness beyond physical death. So the task is left to the individual to learn how to make the distinction between the two which would then help in guiding their opinions.

And finally in a more general sense, when in doubt or mired square in the middle of that loathsome grey area, there is one final litmus test that acts as the deciding factor for me. Does the idea concept or belief that the person holds act to assist them in growing and bettering themselves as a person? Or does it give excuses or escapes for that individual to avoid, side step, or ignore personal flaws or negative habits and mindsets?

I think this is actually the critical issue, and should be asked of every individual no matter what faith, practice, or magic they follow or perform be it established or not. in the end, it is my philosophy that this is the reason for following a spiritual, introspective path to begin with. So if a person is using it as a tool to better themselves, if it provides comfort and wherewithal to face inward and dig out their flaws in a healthy way, to overcome their bad habits, to grow as people and become more mentally, emotionally, and/or physically healthy in thought and behavior, then what does it really matter? Likewise, If they are using it to excuse selfishness, to side-step flaws or negative attitudes, or to avoid looking inward with a critical (but loving) eye- then it doesn't matter what the faith or practice, there is a critical flaw being revealed for that individual. This whole process is about bringing yourself towards personal betterment, not excusing yourself from it.

Spirit75 said "This whole process is about bringing yourself towards personal betterment."
I totally agree with this statement, this is why I practice magick. It is also a very personal journey. So if I believe that using a certain crystal and a specific incense will increase my effectiveness then I will use it. If I want to wave a wand about, so be it.
You must use your common sense, life is not a movie, and people cannot sprout wings, magick is a personal experience, your own beliefs. What works for one, might not work for another.

I think a lot of what is being spoken about in this topic can fall under the heading of UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis) and PCPG (Peer-Corroborated Personal Gnosis).

There is a wonderful post on the site about just that, by Personified, that goes into these concepts better than I could. You may want to give a read :

Link : http://www.spellsofmagic.com/read_post.html?post=598601

Well in all honesty, if you think Deities are fake, that's totally fine. You would not be alone in that. I've known several practitioners who believe in the power of stones, herbs, and energy, but not of Gods. I've also known a Hellenist whom believes magick is working with Deities and spirits and that everything else is just, "wishing really hard". Other things I've heard are things like the disbelief in candles and candle magick. Arguing they were only used for light and add nothing to a working. If you believe that, more power to you! You can practice a different way than others, there is no shame in that.

Now see, a fair assessment of where to draw the line would be proof. What I mean is changing dna is something we can prove doesn't work. Flying or controlling elements are also things we can prove for absolute sure do not work. Magick tools such as candles, crystals, herbs? They very well could. You are free to think they do not but that comes down to belief. Same thing with Deities. Many have dreams of their Gods, project to see them, channel them in various ways. They have enough proof and have established a bond with their Gods. We may not have concrete scientific evidence they exist, but there is also no concrete evidence they do not. As any Athiest will tell you, it is impossible to prove or disprove. They simply disbelieve because they have never experienced anything to make them think otherwise. Which is totally fine.

Spirit75 long response indeed. But I managed to run my eyes past what I believe were your key points. I am not going to pick any sides at all. By that I mean I will not imply who is better than who in the 'fluff/fiction' zone because we are still trying to establish the boundaries. I think the minute an individual convinces their self that this works and so on because they are -like you said- trying to side step flaws and negative habits or to avoid critical self examination, then the key area they should be focusing on is consciousness. I mean watch the everyday life carefully, 'magick' is not only when you set up the altar or go for your meditation session. Magick is throughout the whole day, please watch these events very carefully. I think that is what this practice is all about. Before you move on to the gods please see the human beings and be in control of your interactions with them. Nonetheless my ideas are not ultimate and no one should agree with me. Please forgive me if I outlined that as fact, that was not my intention.
Oroboros yes what works for one might not work for the other. If you believe in crystals and wands then it's your own personal choice and this thing is all about experience and understanding. I warn you now do not rely on the props. They might seem seriously useful, say beyond all doubt as in you are convinced they 'work'. Please note some people do not use these but they can still 'better themselves'. I tried my best not to sound persuasive.

Silentsyren I will confess this much: I do believe in some 'god' of some kind. But now this 'god' does not have a name or belong to any 'pantheon'. Is not a 'human'/soul and can not be described using human characteristics and habits. So now because I know nothing about the 'beginning' or existence or why all the components of the universe are there I'd be completely dumb to think there is no higher power. But if the characters described in pantheons are gods then what i described above is not a god. As for props I used them in the past but not anymore. Amazingly I used to think they work until I 'discovered' all this 'magick' is of the physical body of the magician. But I do not imply that I am more experienced than people who believe in gods and or use props. That is how my journey progressed, that's all.

Tempest linked to an article I wrote earlier on UPG and PCPG. I think that clears up the confusion for you. A person who is stating "this particular crystal or offering is good for this particular deity" is normally talking about their own experiences, therefore it is their UPG. UPG really is neither right or wrong, as it is something uniquely known and experienced by that one person. You might not have the same experience as them. But that doesn't automatically make their experience wrong or fiction.

I concur with the person above. When members discuss magical properties of stones or offerings to deities, much of this comes from books and articles, and personal experiences passed down or written (I would say it would be safe to assume since there are a lot of records of related information on these topics.) I think trying to compare that to kids wanting spells to become vampires is misguided, since this (vampire spells)and spells like it are fake. There are things that might be similar in certain paths and practices, and we know what can and cannot be done with magic. However, magical practice, when it comes to certain things, is very personal. Ritual practice, spellwork, interaction with deity, and so on can vary from one person to the next. Two people could worship the same god, do the same ritual, and get to different experiences but that doesn't make one person's experience less valuable than others.

There's the peer corroborated personal gnosis and unverified personal gnosis which is explained in more detail in another post by Personified. When working with crystals for example, there is the common and collective knowledge of what a certain crystal can do/effect and then there is the personal perspective. Quartz is amazing to soak up energy, but if you feel onyx works better for you, use onyx. That's the best example I can think of, UK 33.