Blatant Arrogance

It isn't about "how to teach themselves how to teach themselves". There is no such thing as not knowing how to learn! It is within our developmental and psychological structure. If they know how to read and write, they know how to learn.

My father and I were having a conversation about this the other day. Before the internet and cell phones, how did we gain information? Or rather how my father put it "survive" because so many are now "helpless" without it. Would you say we were stupid before these things? Only those who didn't put forth effort to pick up a book or ask questions! How about before books were common? Did people not still practice magick? We used our common sense and logic. When I was in college, my particular college had a different way of doing things. They would expect us to give them answers before they taught those answers. Why? Because their philosophy was, you already know the answer by using common sense and logic. Few people use common sense and logic now a days, but you'd be amazed at how much can be answered through it alone.

Would you say more people are better informed since the internet and cell phones became commonplace? Yes, but now they have become dependent on finding answers and not using their own minds. They may be more educated but being "wise" or just plainly "street smart" is becoming less and less common.

I agree with you on this, though what I've been saying doesn't exactly disagree with or having anything to do with it truthfully.

I believe that we all have a mental illness according to modern psychiatry. Most of us either hide it very well, or it isn't severe enough to "require immediate service."
Being one to believe this I find the specific claim I mentioned to be extremely hypocritical, especially for someone who claims to be able to teach.

If you aren't someone who believes my theory, because many don't, are you in that one to believe that people with supposed mental illness or perceived mental illness should not receive teaching and should then teach them self to teach them self? Because whether you believe it or not, no one can teach them self everything they have potential to learn using common sense. Some times the words from a peer, or being shown something (referring to the multiple intelligence forms) is required.

Does that requirement automatically make it unethical to teach someone?

We all learn from others, we can't figure it all out on our own. White you are a decent person of decent intelligence, do you feel you, if not everyone, can every thing you will eventually learn on your own? And do you think it is unethical to teach someone or provide that assistance that so many require?

Let me remind anyone who doesn't know what unethical means just in case:
"lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct."
- Dictionary.com
[ http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unethical?__utma=1.1917828662.1318988532.1323634467.1323652460.26&__utmb=1.2.10.1323652460&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1318988532.1.1.utmcsr=%28direct%29|utmccn=%28direct%29|utmcmd=%28none%29&__utmv=-&__utmk=100741633 ]

I'm sorry, I was going to write more, but my phone began to die and I had to hit send.

I am student of psychology myself (I will one day go back to finally gain my bachelors degree when my daughter gets a little older).

In psychology there is no normal. I'm serious, if you're "normal" you're lying about something (to a psychologist or psychiatrist) because there is absolutely no one without some neurosis, psychosis or schitzophrenia. Now as a woman of common sense and my own mind, I think that is a load of BS.

I don't want to bore you with a bunch of psychology terms that you have to constantly reference with an encyclopedia, so let me keep it simple.

Our mind has the ability to be conditioned and adapt to what we go through, it also has natural defense mechanisms to "survive" not sustain what people consider socially acceptable. Our minds weren't built to be socially acceptable. There is no "normal" because psychology picks at every single behavior of humans and compares it to society. If 10 people don't have this behavior but one person does, then it isn't "normal". They perform statistical polls that skim the surface of society instead of looking deeper into "why". Why do children who watch tv have a higher chance of depression? Perhaps they're escaping from their broken or abusive home! Perhaps they're trying to forget about the bullies at school. Why are they watching tv should be the question, not how many kids who watch tv have depression later in life. But instead they make the assumption that kids watching tv = depression as an adult.

Psychology has dissected the human mind to such a degree and yet never investigates what adaptation or conditioning has occurred before the behavior began. What causes the behavior? Unfortunately behavior psychologists get the yucky end of the stick when it comes to the psychology spotlight.

It has been proven that infants can be conditioned to fear certain things in adulthood. An infant was conditioned to be afraid of a white fluffy thing. He never saw that white fluffy thing again. When he grew up he wouldn't go near anything white and fluffy. He had absolutely no recollection of why.

Now let's look at all of this in a natural point of view. If were animals in the wild, we would surely die without this. What we learn since the time we are born through adulthood is crucial to our development and survival. We never stop learning and changing. When we touch something and it hurts us, we never touch it again. The brain reacts identically to physical pain as it does emotional pain. Therefore when someone hurts us emotionally, our mind says "this hurt me, it is bad".

Now let's look at physical pain. If you you smack the same place over and over again, it will begin to get sore, then you will eventually stop feeling anything (go numb). In the same way when we feel emotional pain and cannot escape it, our emotions (like our physical sensation in the place we are being hit) begins to go numb aka depression. Now if we start smacking a little harder, we will feel the pain again. Just like when memories are dug up, all we feel in a state of depression is negative emotion. Then we go back to feeling nothing and this goes back and forth until what is hurting us stops or is removed. We try to "escape" through tv, games, hobbies, substance abuse, etc. But it comes back as soon as we are once again confronted with what hurts us, be it a memory, person, situation etc.

I could keep going but I've made my main point clear. EVERYTHING that psychology deams "mental illness" is our bodies (hormones, chemicals, brain, nervous system) adapting to what we experience. Therefore it is exactly the way we are designed and there is no abnormal, only variations. Each person has a different life and that creates not only a different perspective, therefore a different reality, but equally a different "normal".

Only when behaviors become dangerous or are harming that person more so than being "defensive" or "adaptive" do I feel they need to be addressed as a "problem" otherwise we should always ask the question "why" and fix THAT. Of course if the person themselves does not like it, it should also be addressed.

Do you know that you can develop schizophrenia temporarily at any point in your life? And every single person has had at least one moment of psychosis? Again, socially unacceptable yet natural behaviors brought on by experiences

When it comes to autism, again, this is not abnormal. These people are normally geniuses and it shouldn't be fixed, but worked with and understood. Just because you don't have it and I don't have doesn't mean that autistic person is wrong for having a different mental process and he/she should conform to our ways...

What I'm trying to say here is, no one is normal, therefore no one has right to say someone is mental ill just because they lived a different life. Magick is natural and no one should be judged as to whether they deserve to use it. Magick is not owned by anyone. It has no copyright. If someone can comprehend, than they can learn. If they can accomplish it, than they were meant to be able to harness it. If they try and try and can neither comprehend nor accomplish any form of magick, THAT is the only reason they should accept that they cannot do it due to the way their mind has adapted (or on rare occasion been born). But that does NOT mean that with someone there to guide them and help them with reconditioning themselves or making necessary change in their life, that they cannot later in the future, pick it up and find success.

What I mean by "no one is normal" is that no one can say "this person is not normal because I'm normal and I'm not like that". Just eliminate "normal" from your mind or accept that it doesn't exist. The only thing that exists is what is socially acceptable for the specific social group and sub-group you are apart of.

Look at that. I'm educating the kids here with psychology! And to match this topic, half of that was what I learned through my own side research in comparison to the professors I constantly disagree with in college. Don't worry, they love me for it, most of them... =P

I looked, and said "this doesn't make sense, you don't study the mind to decide what is "not normal". So I began delving into scientific research, sociology, and behavioral and biological psychology. Then it made sense. What's sad is about 75% of psychologists who offer therapy, would disagree with me, and continue passing out pills like it's candy. But the majority of psychologists who are researchers, experimenters, observers, and using psychology in combination with criminal justice or sociology are the ones who have stepped away from that narrow view. For any young people wondering, my desired full degree is a masters degree in criminal psychology, specializing in behavior.

Feverish, if there is anyone who is arrogant, it is you. I'm here to help as I've explained but all you seem to do is complain.

The thing is magick is misunderstood at it is. We do not need people harassing others just because it doesn't fit their mind frame. I have had plenty of calm and passionate discussions. When you make fun of others for their beliefs thats when things get out of control. There are a lot of problems on this site some big some small. We need to focus on getting some of these fix instead of just bickering. Favoritism is rampant here i have noticed.

From what I've seen, most people on this site have different traditions with different ways of doing things, I havn't seen any arrogance, just people trying to help and beginners or Roleplayers who act as if magick is how it is on the movies.

I can be a little arrogant, and yeah the site could be improved. But so far I havn't had any trouble...

This entire thread seems overly dramatic to me. No one here has any duty to act as a role model for younger generations. In my opinion, we represent ourselves, not 'magic studiers and practitioners'. If someone wants to be arrogant, they have every right to be. I don't want to be clichd, but if this site and it's members truly upset you so much then why would you subject yourself to it?

I would have to agree with Cas there is nothing saying that you have to be a role model or mentor to the young. We do represent ourselves and if thats the way you view those people then thats the way you choose it to be.

Funny you speak of arrogance as if you have none yourself. It is a part of human nature and has its moments with all of us. Take it as you will

The talk of it being unethical to teach others kind of makes me laugh a bit. There is no law of ethics in magick, there is no set of rules that one has to follow in that department. It is up for ever person to decide individually. Its their ethics. How someone chooses to view them or carry them out is not up to you or anyone else but themselves. Im not saying that you can not contemplate why or compare to your ethics but when it comes down to the wire, its not your place or decision. Many arguments I have seen over peoples ethics and what others think. We have to remember that is the path they choose and our only duty is to our own.

Cas and bane are the most agreeable here, you can't argue with free will.
Now arrogance is one thing I'm not directly attacking perhaps I should have been more clear? I don't know.
Arrognce is a nasty side of some people and when they are also ignorant they speak and others will follow.
You might tell me to do my best to just set people straight in these cases and sort of clean up the mess. Sometimes a person can and in most realities one can.
Something I see here is the ability to do so stripped from people. How could justify that after what you just said.
I never brought up ethics to argue it. Lol That would be kind of silly. I am arguing the fact that the person who said sounded like they didn't understand what ethical even means yet people still listened.
I see your points they make sense. But it still doesn't say much about what I meant by this thread.