Is wicca all it's cracked up be?

@Nekoshema

i agree with you that this day and age persecution in the christian religion is not common but before christianity became the major religion it is today many people suffered and died for it too. The disciples of Jesus all died painful death because of their beliefs. All i'm trying to say really is that no matter what religion we are born into there is a down side to it. Right now christianity is the major religion and wicca and other neo-pagan religion are still facing critics but that is not it's only down side, the risk of losing ones soul is high. We are all humans, and we tend to make mistakes you know, that is a danger that i wish everyone is aware of, that not all the things written about wicca is free of doubts. So with care we must consider everything we do so as not to fall into a trap set by demons.

You might have gotten labels wrong. I'm not sure how you can be Wiccan and a Christian. Maybe you believe in the Jesus deity. That's fine I guess. As long as you don't believe in the Christian bible. I think it would be easy for you to get labels right. You might be a follower of Witchcraft instead of wicca.

The list idea was a good one. pick any religion that you think you are attracted to. list the pros and cons (what ways has it been used for evil) you can be eclectic. i know several christian-Wicca. what matters is what you feel comfortable with. if you want to mix christian saints with Norse or roman mythology, i don't see a reason why you can't mix. yea there are some people who may do bad things with magic... but that is true of any religion. what makes magic good or bad, is how it is used by the individual. hope this helps

Well.

/rant once again.

Good and Evil are human concepts, and as was so aptly put.. Humanity Is Flawed. It's partly out greatest weakness, and greatest strength. Without perfection, we can Improve. With imperfection, we can screw up or fail.
As was also aptly said, it's all on Us. Our choices.

I do not believe, not have I Ever found evidence of the fact, that Demons exist for the explicit purpose of soul theft and corruption of humanity. There are probably more Spirits in existence then Stars in the sky, and to assume an Entire Race is Exactly the Same with No capability of Diversity or Change is against the fundamental flow of the Universe. All things choose, all things experience, and all things are capable of being better or worse then they are.

It seems too many people want to use the Excuse of "Demons" as a way of explaining their own cruelties and poor choices. I sincerely dislike how each time something bad happens some will blame demonic forces over their own bad judgement. I also dislike how if a spirit looks dark, it is automatically "Evil" and "Demonic". Spirits aren't colour coded for our convenience, and Human Dead can be just as Pitch Black and shadowy as any other Spirit. Some people only Perceive Most spirits as Shadows due to their own Developing psychic potential. Thinking all Shadows mean Evil from the getgo is a Great way to become paranoid in later research, or to feel that negativity is always hounding you. In this regard I feel Many create their own "demons" and cause their own "problems" for in Many ways you Get what you Expect.

Anyway,
Christianity has its flaws, and being a major religion in this world it has its share of Huge mistakes and Huge problems. It is infact a Major religion, and when there are that amounts of Anything human there are Bound to be problems.

Wicca, which is A type of paganism(definition), has its problems. It also has Less impactful problems because it is infact Smaller. Any religion has its positive and negative aspects, because People bring them to it or create them within the system.

At it's core both are Supposed to be means of communion with Deity, whichever label you put on the Omnipotence you feel is correct. They are means to an end, a path to walk. Neither Can Be wrong in This regard. It is Irrelievent if any are more "right" then others, because every path is unique and has the same Eventual destination.

Also, as abit of an aside, Wicca is not the Only form of paganism. It seems like people coming into the site seem to think it's Wicca in one corner, or forms of Christianity in another. There are Many forms of Paganism, and even more middle ground theologies. It would be nice to see others discussed for once.


I personally believe that By definition, Monotheism and Polytheism do Not mix and Cannot mix. Monotheism's main Concept is "One god above all, No other God then me." Polytheism not only acknowledges the Existance of many Gods, but encourages the worship of a Pantheon or to have Communion and Relationship with several. Even if some are only gestures of respect, Such as making a gesture to Hecate or Hades around Halloween/Samhain even if you worship Zeus predominantly. In Definition and By Definition, these concepts Cannot mix.

However.
A person can choose to be a Christian who Acknowledges there Could be/are other gods but Does not worship them, Or a Pagan who strives to Emulate Christ as a figure of Responsibility and Morality whom Humanity in general should strive to become like.

Beyond that, I feel it is violating the basic Definition of Both concepts of Theology simply to avoid making a choice between either or. I know many people will disagree with me, and I will say this:
This is my Opinion, and I do not care if it is considered incorrect, as I do not Mind if you Disagree.
It is not persecution to poke holes in the Logic of others, nor is criticism in itself an attack (concepts which seem to dominate the thoughts of Too many people in this era).

Chaotes take what they feel works from any religion they wish, and make an amalgamative system based on the mishmashed whole. This can be oddly sensible, and functional. Taking pieces and trying to force a middle ground with opposites by Definition and trying to stay within the Boundaries of Each is Illogical at best. Labels are what one Calls oneself Within a system, Definition of the System is what makes the System what it IS.


This has been sort of Tangenty, and I am fully aware.
All I ask is if you disagree or wish to discuss here, do so respectfully and without intent to cause blatent rudeness. Again, I am aware my words might not be fully acceptable to Everyone, but that doesn't mean I am singling people out or Attacking anyone. If you read this and feel that way, please reread, think, calm down, reread again, and Then post.

If you simply must tell me how wrong or vile I am for this, please be at Least mature enough to mail me.

Anyway.
/rant complete. Thanks for reading, bonus points if you read it all instead of skimmed.

@ Flagg Moderator/Notice

i agree with everything you said in fact i think you just said everything i wanted to say in a more detailed way what i must disagree with though is the idea that you think Demons do not play a part in the demise of most humans.
Yes humans are flawed and make wrong choices but these choices were placed there by something weren't they. Some of the things that we humans face today are caused by some external force, like poverty or say sickness that have no cure for example, someone in such a situation would accept help from anyone.

Now imagine a witch who knows she could get the solution to her problems from a demon, she has the choice of not accepting the demons deal and seeking help elsewhere or accepting and losing the soul. The demon it self may have been the cause of the problem in the first place. Demons are deceptive and would do anything to trick someone, they would make it seem like it's your choice all the way but it's actually their manipulation at work.

In all this i do still see that people tend to blame all their problems on the devil all i'm really trying to say is that 60% percent of the time the devil is to blame.

as i pointed out, Kristinally, Pagans need to stop harbouring a grudge for what Christians did hundreds of years ago by burning accused witches. it has nothing to do with us anymore, unless you're blood related to a person who was killed. with the crusades, not getting into that, it was people fighting over holy land, not one group trying to wipe out another group due to belief, they had the holy land, we took it back, was basically it. yes, there was prejudice, but the main reason was 'they have it, we want it'. back when Christianity arose [believe i mentioned this already as well] Romans were killing Christians for their believes, as well as blaming everything bad upon them. [in fact they thought Christians were cannabises because of the 'body and blood' line] all this changed however when they deiced there could be only one religion of the land and Christianity was chosen.

as i said as well in my previous post, we don't believe in heaven, or hell, or an immortal soul. we believe we have a spirit that is reincarnated, but we don't believe it atones for our sins after death. we are rewarded and punished for what we do here and now, not later for all eternity. each life is a lesson, that's why we return.

you're Christian, not trying to sound mean, but you're thinking like a Christian, you won't be able to understand really. the responses you've gotten, you seem to reply with 'what if a demon's tricking you' not to upset you, not saying one religions greater than the other, but what if a demon is tricking you? from what history reads, a lot of suffering has come at the hands of your all loving God.

please don't get upset, i'm not trying to start an argument, just making a point. knowing i'm a witch, makes me so happy, i get this warm feeling when i read a pagan book the same as i do when i donate to charity, or volunteer, or someone thanks me for holding the door. maybe it is a demon tricking me, if so, i don't care, i'm happy, i don't go around harming others, i don't try to convert them to my side, i live my life the way i want knowing every action has consequences, so i think before i do [most of the time, we're all human] personally, i don't think it's 2 demons i pray to, i feel connected to the Lord and Lady, similar i guess to how you feel connected to God, or Jesus. nothing wrong with that.

You are right, i am also right and i don't know how to explain it to you but i'm guessing i don't need to, because i can see the reason why you say that i'm acting as a christian is because i'm trying to make you understand something in my own view point instead of seeing it in your own. I know you are quite aware of both history of the two religions as i am so there is no point in stressing the issue, like you said; it has nothing to do with us anymore.

I think at some point we had diverted from the area of discussion Which is; is wicca all it's cracked up to be?
When i made this thread i was confused, like every beginner coming from another religion i find myself battling with certain things i encounter on my reads. Recently i just encountered the hierarchy of demons and a book of demonology or something like that and without consulting the entire book i started to despair in the idea that perhaps wicca or witchcraft was for me because in all honesty i didn't want to have anything to do with a demon.

All in all, i prayed to God to answer me(i do pray to God because i believe he is my creator and the creator of the universe, i don't care what any may call him all i know is he is my lord and he is the one who has protected me till now) and guide me and i promised myself i wouldn't take one step forward i until i recieved a responds but i didn't that day so i put up this thread. I couldn't trust the voice that i normally take guardians from, it kept telling me that it depends on the user of the sacred magic but i refused to listen.
In the end i realized that in the book the demons were placed there because they were mean't for us to recognize them should we ever encounter one and also that the demons were slaves, and to warn us to never submit to one least we lose our souls.

Things went out of hand from there. Anyway i think it was fun so far.

well, if you're Wiccan, you don't really deal with demons, you might run into one, but a person who is strictly Wiccan, i don't know any who has run into a demon. demons do wander around like spirits on occasion, but they don't normally attack people unless they're invited in some way. i've been a witch for about 8 years now, and have been dealing with spirits my whole life, i've never encountered a demon.

there are many branches to Paganism, so you need to understand 'Wicca' is different from 'Witchcraft' 'Witch' 'Satanist' 'Shaman' and so on. Wicca is a new religion, based off old teachings as well as new ideas, it's very personal, so there's no 'you can't do that' 'you can do this' type of thing. strictly speaking, if someone follows strictly Wicca [speaking about Gardnerian Wicca, there's a couple others] and doesn't dabble in other paths, the only real 'commandment' is 'As it Harm None, do What Thou Wilt' so they cannot cast any spell that would harm another, they cannot hurt anyone really including themselves. [this is why one of the big arguments in the Wiccan community is should we eat meat lol]

it's a religion of peace and balance, what you take out of the earth you must put back in. if you cut down a tree for Yule, plant a new one in the spring, that sort of thing. also, as i said above, they can't harm themselves, so along with the argument of not eating meat, some believe tattoos, piercings, drugs, alcohol, and smoking are wrong because you're doing harm to your body. [also staying up late and eating junk food] granted not everyone's like that, but i'm just pointing out Wiccans are rather peaceful, it's when you get into the other Pagan branches where you get confused. it's like studying Voodoo and Wicca at the same time, they're both considered Pagan, but you'll find different beliefs in both religions.

like i said in my first post, if you feel a strong connection to The Lord God, people do follow Christian Wicca [odd term but whatever] you would celebrate the seasons and practice magic, but you'd pray to God, Jesus, Mary [if you pray to her already] so it's best of both really.

I believe I see where the problem lies now.


Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism/ect Doesn't mean you Have to "consort with demons."

There are books on demonology, lists of names ect. The vast majority are written as a sort of Bestiary, so you know who does what and under whom. They aren't tomes of summoning.

Such books are for those whom want to understand such beings, or understand how their world works. Christianity has also written the Vast majority of such tomes, probably under the idea of "know thy enemy."

There have also been many Christian or Christianity related tomes of Magick, with instructions on summoning demons (usually with instructions on how to ensure obedience, usually through violence to the spirit). Sacred magick of Abramelin the Mage comes to mind, the Goetia of King Solomon another.
There have even been at Least one Pope who has written his own Grimoire.

My point is: Just because literature on a topic exists, doesn't make it A. Required reading B. A necessary part of the religion/concepts/path C. Important enough to colour your perceptions.

If the existence of such books troubles you enough that it makes you unsure of your beliefs, perhaps looking within to reaffirm where you stand is in order? (I know you've stated you are past this).


As well, another thing that seems misconstrued:

Demons making deals, or the Capacity to steal souls, is a Christian idea. Demons being evil is a Christian idea.

In ancient Greece and before, the word Daemon (which became Demon) was loosely ment as a Spirit in general, or even as a Teaching spirit. A being who is not human. It has since been taken to mean the modern idea of a being who serves under Satan ect ect.

Wicca does not acknowledge Satan/Devil, therefor does not acknowledge Demons steal souls to populate Hell. There is no Hell in that system.
This could also explain why it was said that you still think like a Christian, as you are imputting the idea of Hell into a system that doesn't acknowledge it's existance.

The concept of Hell as a place of Human punishment is actually nearly modern as well. Before such conceptual places were dwellings of other beings, and Limbo/Purgatory were once the only accepted "other" dwelling places of the soul.


If you are ignoring your inner voice, and your guardians, then you are closing your mind to beings and experiences that Magical theology and philosophy ask you to accept. I would say that from what you described, being told it is how you use the magic, then they did not mislead you.


Most magical theology and philosophy acknowledge there are beings that embody darkness, but not as Evil. There is light and dark, in everything (including us!) because it Balances the Cosmos. It is a Vital part of nature and the Universe, and to cut out the Dark not only means we could never understand light, but it would deform us on a spiritual level. Embracing Darkness And Light doesn't mean we alternatively act Good and Evil, but that we become balanced as individuals and choose to perpetuate Cosmic balance.

To anyone with similar feelings, all I can say is perhaps it would be best to be sure This path of Magick is where you Truly want to be. As well, to put more stock into honing and Trusting yourself and your instincts. They are vastly more vital then many realise.

(Same disclaimer as last time, no offence intended!)

Thanks so much! That was a fantastic piece of writing, it pointed out everything i needed to hear. Alright i admit i have already come to those conclusions but it's good to hear someone elses opinion as well. I guess now i should also admit that i can't accept everything i read on wicca or basically the whole occult system but this is based on the grounds that i still believe in my christian beliefs and it's going to take a while before i find something that makes me feel at peace with myself. For the begining wicca gave me that peace and ease my depression it also gave me a purpose and for the first time in forever i know what i want which is why i know wicca is for me, i don't think i can find this feeling anywhere else.

I don't want to rant since i'm not really good at it but thanks and i am not offended by anything you ve said so far, in fact i find it amazing that you and Nekesha took this so seriously. I don't have anyone i can ask or talk to about this and since i come from a place where demon possession and Vodoo magic is common i find it hard to free my mind from suspicion even to the extent i don't trust my instinct or the voice of guardians. Anyway thanks so much, both of you.